Posts
Here is the link to the full coverage from this past month: http://zeitun-eg.org/warraq.htm
If I were to rely on my own sensibilities, I would say this is not the Theotokos and is more likely a deceiving spirit or something else that an investigation could probably uncover. Purposeless visions of the Holy Virgin are against Holy Tradition and according to the Saints of Orthodoxy are rare and solely reserved for those who can accept such visions in the utmost humility. Why would Christians undermine the unique nature of such true visions by claiming that so many thousands of people can have visions of the uncreated glory of the Virgin? Plus, why would the Virgin want to become a Youtube celebrity anyway?
I personally lean towards this supposed "vision" as being a hoax, mainly by observing the video posted above which allows for it to be recreated. Towards the end of the video the light dissolves into a singular point as if it has its origins in that point which seems to be attached to the top of part of the church through a rod (view this at the 4:32 mark). I think this just may be an interesting case of laser or some other light technology.
Also, if this "vision" were authentic, why then doesn't the Holy Virgin walk around the roof and bless people from all four corners or something. She just stagnantly remains in that single space and dissolves into a point that is attached to the building by a rod.
Such things make Christians lose their credibility, and I have to side with the Muslim and skeptic opinion here, unfortunately, that it is a hoax.
If I were to rely on my own sensibilities, I would say this is not the Theotokos and is more likely a deceiving spirit or something else that an investigation could probably uncover. Purposeless visions of the Holy Virgin are against Holy Tradition and according to the Saints of Orthodoxy are rare and solely reserved for those who can accept such visions in the utmost humility. Why would Christians undermine the unique nature of such true visions by claiming that so many thousands of people can have visions of the uncreated glory of the Virgin? Plus, why would the Virgin want to become a Youtube celebrity anyway?
I personally lean towards this supposed "vision" as being a hoax, mainly by observing the video posted above which allows for it to be recreated. Towards the end of the video the light dissolves into a singular point as if it has its origins in that point which seems to be attached to the top of part of the church through a rod (view this at the 4:32 mark). I think this just may be an interesting case of laser or some other light technology.
Also, if this "vision" were authentic, why then doesn't the Holy Virgin walk around the roof and bless people from all four corners or something. She just stagnantly remains in that single space and dissolves into a point that is attached to the building by a rod.
Such things make Christians lose their credibility, and I have to side with the Muslim and skeptic opinion here, unfortunately, that it is a hoax.
But are you inferring that the Copts can´t accept such visions in the utmost humility?
ReplyDeleteI'm not inferring anything. I thought it was pretty clear what I said. This type of vision falls more in line with the delusional Marian apparitions of the West. I'm surprised no one climbs the roof to investigate the matter while this is going on.
ReplyDelete-I need from you to tell us what are the most point in common between this apparition in Egypt and with the delusional Marian apparitions of the West ?
ReplyDelete-what is your evidence that this light in the form of a person is not true?
If you want just to do some bla bla , you are welcome .
fady saber (Coptic citizen)
I'm not saying it's not true. I just don't believe it is the Virgin Mary. A few of the Marian apparitions of the West have been done to masses of people to confirm heresy and/or have no other point but to shock and awe multitudes. Such visions are not only foreign to Orthodox tradition, but also go against what the Fathers and Saints say about visions of the Virgin Mary. If this is true, then it contradicts the experiences of the Saints.
ReplyDeleteBut your points rest on these "facts":
ReplyDelete1. That the Coptic Church is in heresy
2. The point is to shock and awe the multitudes
I would suggest your are completely wrong on both points. Since you are wrong on both points in my opinion, then your conclusion that this would go against the teachings and experiences of the saints is also wrong.
For all I know it could be a hoax. It is odd the light extinguishes to a singular point in the video above and there is no real movement. But even if it isn't, yes I do believe the Coptic Church is in schism from the Orthodox Church. And I see no point to these visions but to shock and awe multitudes. Any other interpretation is pure speculation. But as a Copt I wouldnt expect you to believe anything else but this is an authentic vision. And we havnt had similar Saints in many centuries, so the Saints I refer to are not accepted by your church.
ReplyDeleteyou are just talking without any evidences
ReplyDeletecould you tell us what is the coptic church and orthodox church differences ?
fady saber (Coptic citizen)
I agree with you. This kind of apparition is really weird within the Orthodox tradition.
ReplyDeleteThe differences are highly technical Christology which the Coptic Church and the Orthodox Church have been discussing for a long time. There is some evidence that the differences are merely semantic between us on these specific issues, but we have been divided in schism since 451 AD when the Coptic Church did not accept the decisions of the Fourth Ecumenical Synod. Because of this, we are not permitted to partake of the same eucharist until our differences are fully resolved. Though I would not say the Coptic Church is necessarily in heresy at this point, there is definately a schism that needs to be healed. This is why in Egypt there is a division between the Coptic Church and the Patriarchate of Alexandria.
ReplyDeleteJS, I expressed the exact same opinion on an Orthodox internet forum; the main point I was making is that *regardless* of whether the "sign" was from *within* an EO church, a RC church or a Coptic church the "style" of the "sign" is simply *not* in line with the teachings of our church ...
ReplyDeleteSpecifically, I said that such a 'sign' does not resemble the virtue of "humility" ... understandably, this did caused offense and defensiveness since people do need 'signs' to reaffirm that what they have is real ...
;-)
Dear Fady & JS,
ReplyDeleteThe Holy Fathers of the 4th-7th Ecumenical Councils, as well as countless other Orthodox saints and teachers, have taught up to the present time that the Coptic Confessions and other non-Chalcedonian Confessions hold heretical beliefs about the person/natures of Christ. It is not just an issue of schism, JS.
This does not mean, Fady, that you are a bad or impious person, but the fact remains that the Coptic Confession teaches erroneous beliefs about Jesus Christ. Only the Eastern Orthodox Church, the one and only true Church, preserves the Faith unpolluted.
If you are really interested in investigating the differences between the Coptic Confession and the Orthodox Church, please refer to the following link:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_mono.aspx
In IC XC,
DB
DB,
ReplyDeleteThe link you provided is not for someoene who honestly wants to know the true historic and theological issues. How sad. There is nothing hidden that will not be revealed.
The current Coptic Pope Shenouda denies theosis. That's heresy.
ReplyDeleteOf course we all know the Copts deny the validity of every Orthodox Synod post-Chalcedon in 451 since they never participated in these disputes. This is only natural that they would deny them.
ReplyDeleteAlso, for anyone that has studied in detail the dialogue between the Copts and the Orthodox in the 20th century, significant strides have taken place. Chalcedon 451 accepted the terminology set forth in the Tome of Leo, while the Copts maintained the terminology of St Cyril of Alexandria. Both are Orthodox Saints and both taught the same thing yet with different language. Todays Copts understand this and it would be quite difficult to call them heretics just because they accepted the formula of St Cyril of Alexandria.
In essence, I agree with what Fr John Romanides said:
"Since the seventh century, relations between the Orthodox of the East Roman Empire and the Coptic, Ethiopian, Armenian and Indian Orthodox were on the whole good. They were improved even more when segments of both groups found themselves united under Turkish oppression. It is commonly recognized that differences between the two groups are not of a substantive nature. It is very possible that formal union between the 40 or 50 million Oriental and African Orthodox and the 200 million Greek Orthodox will be consummated in the not too distant future."
Unfortunately things have been hindered in the past few decades and hopefully we will continue the significant work Fr Romanides achieved in this dialogue.
There is also a misunderstanding that Pope Shenouda denies theosis. This is not true. The theological disputes, in reference to Matta El-Meskeen and Babawi, have been taken to a far greater extent then perhaps they should have been. Some "theologians" such as Babawi have taken theosis to mean that man may become God by partaking in the essence of God. This is incorrect, and Pope Shenouda is right to react against such wayward theology. By taking such a stance, the Coptic Church does not deny that humanity may partake in the energies/works/operations of God, only that man may never come near the essence of God, which is transcendant. Because the above mentioned (Matta and Babawi) have taken theosis to mean that man is deified and as such partakes in the essence of God, the Church clearly claims that such an idea is theologically incorrect. Thus, the dispute is a reaction to incorrect understanding.
In fact the Coptic understanding of theosis, which is like that of the Orthodox, proves the consensus in understanding theosis prior to 451 AD and that it is not a Palamite invention as some theologians claim.
Dear JS,
ReplyDeleteYes, Chalcedon 451 accepted the terminology set forth in the Tome of Leo, but NOT in contradiction to, or even to the slightest diminution of, the terminology of St Cyril of Alexandria. The Orthodox Holy Fathers of Chalcedon (and subsequent Ecumenical Councils) affirmed ALL of St. Cyril's Christology, as well as the Tome of Leo, because it was all Orthodox. The Coptic representatives, on the other hand, quoted certain Cyrillian terms and phrases out of context to support their monophysite position. Coptic saints of that period (e.g., Timothy Ailouros, Severos) acknowledged their selective use of Cyril by their condemnations of his "later" Christology. In reality, there was no "earlier" and "later" Cyrillian Christology. Cyril's Christology was harmonious throughout, which is why the Orthodox Church embraced all of his teaching.
How this relates to the present day Coptic Confessions is not as clear. Some say that they are more inclined to Orthodox Chalcedonian Christology than they ever have been. Positive relations between them and the Orthodox Church is also good. However, what does "signifcant strides in the 20th century" mean? Are the Copts on the verge of accepting the latter four Ecumenical Councils? After all, that has been the precondition for reunion for the last thousand years. If that precondition is no longer necessary, then I fear the reunion will be a false one.
I respect and admire Fr. John Romanides, JS, but on this question I must side with what our Church has always taught us through the continuous living witness of the Holy Fathers, Elders and Saints up to the present day.
In IC XC,
DB
That was my point DB, hat there was no contradiction between Leo and Cyril. And have no fear, doubtless will the Orthodox accept the Non-Chalcedonians unless they accept everything that is necessary to unite us, not only all the Ecumenical Synods, but all the Pan-Orthodox Synods and Canons. Without this, there can never be Church order, let alone correct doctrine and salvation.
ReplyDeleteThe comment under the video says this about the appearance of the Theotokos, "It would be disappointing if this were true because not only would it confirm the schismatic Copts". I find this comment DISAPPOINTING! How would you feel if the reverse were true and St. Mary appeared in an EO church and a Copt said that about the vision?? I am a Copt and if I heard the Theotokos appeared in a nearby EO church, I would not hesitate for a second to go to that church and recieve the Blessings. If I was skeptical, I will know by the spirit of Love I feel in that EO church whether this is a vision from God or a hoax. I would not condemn the vision without investigation because we have a misunderstanding over language from 1550 years ago! Do you really believe that when we meet GOD in Heaven, as we all will one day, that God will ask us which Orthodox church we went to Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox? OR Will he Judge us based on how we lived our life in the church we go to and if we condemend others unjustly. I believe we are brothers in the same church but I leave the final unity to those who are entrusted with that, i.e. the bishops. God Bless.
ReplyDeleteThere is only one Church, and that Church I believe to the Orthodox Church as a body of believers who are in communion with each other. How God will judge those outside the Church, including Copts, I leave that to God to decide. If you determine and discern a vision by a subjective feeling of "love", then you are just asking to be decieved. As far as miracles in Orthodox churches, I wouldnt expect anyone but an Orthodox to accept them, since th miracle would be for the Orthodox. Miracles are signs for the Church, not for non-believers, as I believe your "miracle"/hoax in Egypt appears to be.
ReplyDeleteIf a vision appears in a church or a congregation who have no Love, I would RUNAWAY AS FAR AS I COULD FROM THAT VISION!!
ReplyDeleteLove is greater than Faith. 1 Corinthians St. Paul says "So Faith, Hope, Love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is Love" and in Gospel of John "God is Love".
St. Mary appears in Egypt throughout the years and many times for several obvious reasons.
1)Love-- St.Mary visits Egypt often because it is the place where she and Joseph and Jesus fled to from Herod and stayed throught the land of Egypt many years. She is coming to re-visit the descendants of the people and the land that welcomed her and her Son.
2)Encouragment-- St.Mary appears to encourage ALL the faithfull christians who are suffering under persecution on a daily basis. She also is showing the light of God to those who maybe weak in their faith or have none at all as She appears whether the people in the crowd are Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, non-christian, etc....They can make up their minds and hearts.
May the Theotokos bring Peace and Love to All!
A U.S. Copt
I agree with US Copt. LOVE is key, and the Virgin Loves her children with the Love of her Son.
ReplyDeleteThe only reason other Orthodox believe that the Saints only appear to the few faithful who "deserve" the apparition in apparent humility, is because of gnostic influences that have polluted the Orthodox faith, and made many Orthodox believe that the Lord and all His saints are only for the select few, who, in their "holiness", reserve the right to be near Him. Thanks to tenets of philosophy, many Orthodox have watered down the Love of Christ and accepted the notion that He is only for the "elite" (who they seemed to have confused for the faithful), almost subconciously. THIS IS WRONG.
Our Lord came for the sinners, the poor, the downtrodden, those who did not know Him, those who were completely and utterly far from Him, and the non-believers. In the context of what you've stated above, that means Christ came for those whom the Church in modern day, easily rejects. Our Lord never once even pretended to be only accessible to the "holy ones"; in fact, He harshly condemned the Pharisees for holding to this notion as true. Christ sat with the multitudes, with the simple ones, even with those who knew nothing about God. The only ones He turned from were those who willingly and repeatedly turned from Him. So why would He reserve the knowing and seeing of His saints for the "spiritual elite" as you insinuate?
My brother, your idea is highly mistaken. The Virgin appears to the multitudes in order to bring peace, to remind people of hope, to blow the minds of skeptics who rely solely on their limited brains (which GOD Himself created, not they themselves) to understand the reality of her Son. HE is reality, and if HE chooses to allow His mother to visit her children, who are we to question the manner in which He does that? If HE chooses to send messages of hope and strength through the most holy, most beloved of saints, the mother of us all, who are we to question how He chooses to do so? You claim that these apparitions (which you deem to be false) are not in humility; do you not think that if He wanted to, the Lord could have St. Mary appear and speak messages? Or with loud choirs of angels singing from the heavens? Or with an earthquake, forcing all to their knees to hear and see her??? But she appears in the form of bright light, with doves of light. That's it.
My brothers, before you perpetuate schisms, harsh feelings, and separation in the Church of Christ, please consider that it is possible that even your own Orthodoxy may be tainted with the imperfections of time and humanity (as even the Eastern Orthodox have divisions amoungst themselves); it's not for us to judge how God goes about His work, our only job is to allow Him to work in us.
Signed, your sister in Him.
Because I have received many questions on my views on this supposed "vision", I have added more information to my posting. I believe earlier I gave it this "vision" too much credibility when I assumed the possibility it could be demonic in origin, so I wanted to clarify that I do believe it to be 100% a hoax.
ReplyDeleteAnd as many know who follow my weblog, I expose Orthodox hoaxes as much as I do those of heretics, schismatics, and people of other religions. If such claims were made by an Orthodox in Greece or Russia, and such convincing video proving it is a hoax were released as I have posted above, then I would expose it with much more fervor that I am this present hoax in Egypt.
And this is coming from a person who whole-heartedly believes in authentic miracles and visions.
Part 1 of 2
ReplyDeleteTo JS
The latest comments back away from the notion that the vision is "demonic". The idea that a demon would appear in front of a CROSS ON THE TOP OF a CHURCH to attract people to Christ is NONSENSE from the getgo...
Also I am glad the notion that the vision's purpose is to confirm the Copts Orthodoxy is also gone. We have been Orthodox since St.Mark the Apostle was martyred in the streets of Alexandria, dragged behind Roman horses, in the first century. I have already stated the reasons that St.Mary appears and it is not to “Confirm” our Orthodoxy!
You said you believe in “authentic” miracles and visions. I am Glad! However, you go on to say “I do believe it to be 100% a hoax” regarding the vision in Egypt. I as a Copt, once again ask you for evidence on this BASELESS UN-SUBSTANTIATED CLAIM!
You say, that this is an "interesting case of laser technology" and that the Muslims believe it is a hoax. Before I respond, here are some links to different videos of the same Transfiguration of the Theotokos which is the correct name for this appearance from the Bible. www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQCqxAdENos
and of the doves that appeared high in the dark sky www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3FDMrBiMHI&feature=channel
The most recent and widely publicized Transfigurations of St.Mary are in 1968 in Zeitoun (the link is www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWY7ZqXt6Jg Notice the same appearance of the Theotokos and the doves- There was no Laser in 1968 or Youtube videos!), in 1986 in Pappa Doblo, and now in 2009 in Warak (and many many... others).
All Three appearances were FIRST witnessed by MUSLIMS!! NOT COPTS! In all these cases MUSLIM neighbors near the churches saw the light first and informed their Coptic neighbors, in addition many miracles have happened to both Muslims and Christians alike. In Warak, among the thousands you see in the video in the streets are hundreds of Muslims some of them are veiled women in Islamic garb! If this were a Hoax fabricated by Laser as you say then please show us which technology did it and provide the link or is this just a claim without evidence??
Cont’d in Part 2
Mike, A US Copt
Part 2, Cont’d from Part 1
ReplyDeleteScientifically, Laser requires tremendous amounts of electric power and is a see-thru mono-chromatic light which has NO movement. The Virgin was seen in White, Rose and Blue colors, these are lights which are impossible to produce together by laser at the same time. In addition, the Theotokos did move and bless the people and kneel in front of the cross as testified by THOUSDANDS of eye witnesses. Additionally, in the link provided you can see the light of the Theotokos completely overwhelms the Lighted cross behind the virgin in the middle dome, so much so that you can only see the part of the cross which is above the Virgin's crown. Additionally, it is impossible that it is a LASER BECAUSE the amount of ELECTRIC POWER needed to create such a concentrated impenetrable light would DESTROY AND VAPORIZE anything it touches including the Church's dome. IF there were such a laser, I think the US ARMY might be interested to know about IT! (THE WHOLE NOTION OF A LASER IS Simply Sad & NONSENSE!)
You also say something about a pole and light disappears to a singular point as if it is a TV. Well Provide the technology links that can create such images and also how do you imagine the Virgin disappear if not a singular point?? There is no POLE, where are you seeing it? In your own video, The Virgin is standing between the Right Dome on the back of the Church and one of the Bell towers at the Front of the Church. It is a completely empty space on top of the roof of the Church.
The transfiguration of St.Mary is NEITHER unusual NOR strange as it comes directly from the Bible. On the mount of Transfiguration, Jesus was transfigured along with Moses and Elijah. READ the account of the Transfiguration in Matthew 17. "And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him." Peter, James and John all saw this on the mount and recognized Elijah and Moses, so here are two prophets who appeared as they were on earth, same as with the Theotokos and the White light is the same as the Theotokos.
To those who want to Believe, they do not need proof, However it is always GOOD to investigate and ask questions otherwise we would be blind to deceivers.
To those who want to Disbelieve, no amount of evidence can convince them, their heart is hardened. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, healed the blind, and cured the lame in front of Thousands of eyes so no one can say it is a video trick! And YET on the day of his arrest and trial, Everyone including his own disciples denied Him and others said it was all a hoax or work of the devil!
Lets pray that we do not lose the chance to change our lives and ways and be closer to Christ. As it says in the Bible "Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see the things which you see, and have not seen them, and to hear the things which you hear, and have not heard them. But as for you, blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears for they hear."
Mike, A U.S. Copt
Mike:
ReplyDelete1. Demons can appear in the presence of the Cross. There are many documented cases. They cannot do the correct Orthodox sign of the cross. I'm not completely ruling out a demonic element. I only rule out the possibility that this is Orthodox.
2. I've seen better light shows at Disney World. It can be reproduced. And this includes the dove. It's nothing impressive. Have you ever been to Disney World?
3. I've seen the videos you show. The reason I posted the video I have is because this is the one which utterly exposes the hoax. The light dissolves into a single light-source. The light-source is a rod attached to the roof. It's perfectly clear.
4. Do you really believe that if Peter, James and John had a video camera on the Mount of Transfiguration, they could have recorded everything they saw? Do you believe they would have posted it on youtube?
And by #4 I mean if the uncreated light can be seen on video camera.
ReplyDeleteDear John -
ReplyDeleteLet me start by stating that I love your blog and I commend you on the very useful information included, and on all the effort you put in keeping it up to date - I know this is not easy. I am a regular reader of your blog (I am also a Coptic Orthodox similar to some of the above people who commented on this last posting).
As a Coptic Orthodox, I would like to state that many of us Copts highly regard and esteem our brothers and sisters in the Eastern Orthodox Church. I personally am an avid reader of many Orthodox authors (including Vladimir Lossky, Alexander Schemann, George Flossky, Archimandrite Sophrony,...etc.), and love the spirituality of the Eastern Orthodox Church, her worship, iconography and hymnology. Personally, I think our theological differences are primarily semantic in nature and pray that we become fully united in the Body of Christ soon by the grace of God. However, this is not why I am writing here.
The reason I am writing is to state that I am disappointed in this last posting concerning the appearance of the Theotokos, the Virgin Mary on top of the church named after her in Egypt. If you would allow me, I would like to look at that event briefly both from a scientific as well as a theological standponts.
From a scientific standpoint, it is really ridiculous to state that this is laser, and I say that as one who has a Ph.D. degree in Engineering. Besides the valid reasons mentioned above by others, the appearance of the Virgin Mary is not new to Egypt. There has been a similar appearance (very well documented) of the Virgin Mary in 1968 over the church named after her in Zeitun. At that time, Laser technology was in its infancy and totally incapable of doing anything like what happenned at Zeitun. Another point to make her is that the appearance of the Virgin Mary is accompanied by luminous doves that hover over the people, incense, luminuous clouds and very well documented healing miracles. By the way, the pheonomon of doves surrounding appearances and miracles is not totally new to the Eastern Orthodox Church. I remember reading about a weeping icon of the Theotokos here in the US in a Greek Orthodox Church where the faithful witnessed doves circling the domes of the church during the time the icon was weeping (see the book entitled Why did she cry? - An Eastern Orthodox book). As a Copt, I fully accept that phenomena and delight in the Glory of God and His mercy which aims at strengthening the faith of His people.
From a theological standpoint, let me start by saying that the appearance of departed saints is not new to the Eastern Orthodox Church. I have read the wonderful story about the Greek Saints, St. Raphael, St. Nicholas and St. Irene (the newly revealed saints who manifested themselves in the 1960s or so I believe), and there we see the saints appearing to the faithful and healing them from their ailments. Also luminous appearances of crosses in the sky is not unheard of in the EO church.
Personally, I think the appearance of the Virgin Mary in Egypt sends a very important message to the Copts. The Copts living in Egypt are simple people. They may not fully understand theology and have not even heard in many cases about the field of apologetics. However, they need a message from God to confirm their faith. They live amid unimaginable pressure from tne Muslim majority who sometimes openly attack their faith and beliefs on the media and in newspapers. God, in His mercy, speaks to everyone in his/her own language, and appearances and miracles like this confirm the faith of the Copts in Egypt. I delight in God and His mercy, and delight in the love of his mother, the Theotokos, who as a loving mother cares for her children and comes to encourage them to stand firm in the faith. Let us all delight in God's mercy and give glory to His Holy name as brothers and sisters in Christ.
I look forward to hearing your comments back.
Adel, thanks for your kind comments about my blog and I'm glad you find it helpful.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest with you, I don't know what kind of light this is. There are many explanations for it that I may get into in another post.
The apparitions in Zeitun I am aware of for many years now as well as the other apparitions in Egypt, and I plan on exposing that hoax elsewhere. I just wanted to treat the present hoax on its own account because it is so obviously a hoax from the video I posted.
The doves and smell of incense can be recreated pretty easily as well. But I don't feel the need to get into these because I have already proven from the video above this is a hoax.
Your interpretations of this hoax is very far-reaching, especially when you consider that this light show is inaudible. When I see the video, I see a bright spectacle that has nothing to say. But whatever the case, whether true or not, a hoax can say something to someone too. The voice that you hear is in your own head and in the voice of those who claim to be prophets, though they aren't. Many Orthodox tend to do this as well when it comes to weeping icons for example. They say an icon weeps because of this or that, when in reality they have no idea. Maybe they are weeping because the parish priest think he is a prophet for claiming to know why the icon is weeping. This interpretation is as valid an answer as any.
I'm surprised you have been a reader of my blog and you think I am not aware that the Saints can appear in visions. I actually wrote of an experience I had at the Monastery of Sts Raphael, Nicholas and Irene here on my blog. I don't see how this proves the apparition in Egypt is not a hoax. I can also point out hundreds of visions throughout history of Saints and the Virgin that are in reality demonic, and I can point out many hoaxes as well.
Just because the Copts are simple, persecuted and need a vision, doesnt mean this justifies the hoax and the assumption that this "vision" is Mary without investigating whether or not it could be a hoax or a demon. I am aware of the persecutions of the Copts and have reported on it myself, which is why the Copts should put these absurdities aside and grow in their faith like we are called to do, not running after visions and miracles like the heterodox.
Based on your evaluations, you must blindly accept all the marian apparitions of the Catholic Church. Do you not see the contradictions these Marian apparitions reveal which oppose your own theology?
I wonder why you never evaluated the footage of the video posted. Can you not see what I think is so obvious?
Why do these visions never happen during the day?
Why has no one ever examined the roof of these churches?
Why doesn't anyone ever try and talk to the Virgin?
Do you really think that just because icons depict halos on the Virgin and the Saints, they really wear halos? This is one I find funniest of all.
Can the uncreated light be captured on video for the whole world to see? Don't you think this diminishes the value of visions? According to the Saints of the Orthodox Church it does.
I have tons more questions that dont make sense with these visions, but I'll save it when I address this issue further.
Johnny-boy,
ReplyDelete-- yes, the HOLY LIGHT of Jerusalem has been on numerous occasions captured on film... AND shamelessly posted on the infamous YouTube, no less, for the whole wide world to see;
-- and, YES, VIRGINIA, THE UNCREATED LIGHT CAN BE (AND HAS BEEN) CAPTURED ON CAMERA... -- and there are similar pictures over at OrthodoxPhotos, in case You're interested.
-- I highly doubt that they had state-of-the-art laser technology in 1968-1970.
-- I also highly doubt that either laser tek or light shows can work miracles, such as the many healings, attested by physicians, that occured at these apparitions.
-- stop acting like Pharaoh and his court magicians when faced with Moses' miracles: it's not about "reproducing" them.
-- here's something else to make You think: why would the devil appear as a Catholic Saint in order to make an atheist abortician turn his life around and join the Orthodox Church?... Hmmm?... Any [reasonable] explanations anyone?
Do you really think that just because icons depict halos on the Virgin and the Saints, they really wear halos? This is one I find funniest of all.
ReplyDeleteDitto: see above-linked picture, as well as other images over at OrthodoxPhotos.
There are a lot of pseudo-photos out there put out by Orthodox.
ReplyDeleteThe Holy Light in Jersalem is not the uncreated light. I've felt it, so I know.
Thomas Aquinas is a heretic, who wrote a book against the Orthodox Church and its "heresies".
I never said Zeitun was laser technology.
As for the miracles, that does not necessarily have anything to do with the hoaxes, though some at least don't have to be attributed to God or the devil either. Psycho-somatic healings are very common in the world and among the heterodox and Orthodox alike.
ReplyDeleteI also wanted to point out that the majority of Orthodox photos, like that of St John linked above, can have reasonable natural explanations. There is no mention for instance that the entire church saw St John immersed in uncreated light in this photo. I wonder if a heretic or murderer has red eye if you would believe he was demon possessed. I'm sure not, but I question the logic of believers sometimes.
ReplyDeleteDear John -
ReplyDeleteThank you for your reply to my earlier comment. Just some clarifications….
First, of course I am aware that you believe that the saints can appear in visions. But my point was to question why you are willing to accept such visions, and not accept the apparition of the Virgin Mary on top of an orthodox church named after her. I also wanted to point out that the appearance of luminous crosses in the sky is well documented throughout the history of the Orthodox Church (e.g. during the days of St. Cyril of Jerusalem, a cross of light appeared in the sky of Jerusalem).
Second, I did not think it necessary to discuss the point that you make about the dot of light that appears after the apparition vanishes for the following reasons. First, if indeed there were a source of light behind, people could easily see the path of light from the source to the apparition. Second, in 1968, at the apparition of Zeitun, Laser technology was not advanced enough to achieve anything like this. Third, in my humble opinion, our Coptic Church will NEVER do something like that to deceive people. As someone who really love your blog and highly esteem the Eastern Orthodox Church and her Hierarchy, I feel somewhat hurt that one of my brothers in the Eastern Orthodox Church would accuse a Sister Church that the church is deceiving its faithful.
Regarding your questions, please let me state that I am not really trying to win the argument or force belief. I am just trying to record what I know really happened.
1. Why do these visions never happen during the day? They actually do, and during the apparition of Virgin Mary in 1986, many of the apparitions took place during the day. Even for the apparition at Warraq, there is one video on youtube that shows light appearing on the cross during broad day light.
2.Why has no one ever examined the roof of these churches? During previous apparitions, many people examined the roof of these churches. In 1968, the government cut off the electricity over the whole Zeitun area and still the Virgin appeared. It is even narrated that the Egyptian President at that time went by himself to investigate and saw her.
3. Why doesn't anyone ever try and talk to the Virgin? Just the presence of the Virgin sends a very strong message that speaks louder than any words. However, during the apparition, people pray and tell the Virgin their needs, and many of their requests are granted, as documented by miracles.
4. Do you really think that just because icons depict halos on the Virgin and the Saints, they really wear halos? Of course, the saints do not wear haloes, but the halo is a symbol of the illumination that these saints have reached through their union with God. Also, one could argue that when a saint appears the saint would like to appear in the form people are used to seeing the saint depicted in icons. This would be how people would recognize the saint.
5. Can the uncreated light be captured on video for the whole world to see? As a lay person, I cannot affirm whether the uncreated light can be captured on video or not. But also I have no problem believing that if God wanted to confirm a miracle, God is free to allow it to be videotaped. Remember John, we are becoming very skeptical during these days with people openly denying the existence of God, so if God, during this time of history, is allowing things that He did not permit or allow before (this stemming from our weakness in faith), I have no problem humbly accepting that He could do it, if He desires to.
Yes, there are hoaxes, but there are also genuine miracles that God allows many people to see (e.g. incorruptible relics, weeping icons,..etc.). Because some photos are hoax, we should not deny all miracles. Otherwise, we would be throwing the baby with the water.
Please accept my apologies if I offended you in any way. I remain as before someone who highly esteem the Eastern Orthodox Church, and one who prays for the full union between the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox.
I don't understand why you are still avoiding my main argument and the reason I have not addressed all these topics. The video above beyond any doubt reveals a hoax. If you refuse to see it, then your faith is blind.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I do not accept the Copts as Orthodox. But I've made that point, as well as others that you force me to repeat.
ReplyDeleteJohn - I am not avoiding it, but I have seen many other videos that do not show this. I also have witnessed an apparition myself in 1986 where I could definitely say that there was no source of light behind it.
ReplyDeleteThe dot that appears at the second you mention could very well be how the apparition disappeared. That is how it starts many times as a small dot of light that then grows. Also, I have listened to the witness of many people who saw the apparition this time (they were interviewed on the Egyptian TV (now posted on youtube, but their testimony is in Arabic unfortunately and not English). Many of them are Muslims who do not deny the apparitions, despite perhaps its implications. I am just surprised that some Muslims believe in the apparition, and an Orthodox brother feels so adamant that he has to show it is a hoax.
and they
There is NO source behind it. Oth
How do you explain the light dissolving to the point of some sort of rod which is attached to the roof.
ReplyDeleteI'm adament because it is so obvious. Better an Orthodox Christian to reveal the hoax before some atheist does and makes us all look stupid.
ReplyDeleteI do not see the rod John, and I gave you another explanation. Believe me if it were obvious, all the Muslims and skeptical people there (not us watching it on youtube) would have stated that to "expose" the "hoax".
ReplyDeleteAlso, my point was that there are so many other accompanying phenomenon (e.g. the flying luminous doves, the bright light that people saw from miles away, the healing miracles including a blind who could see after being blind for six years (well documented by doctors reports) that argue that this is not a hoax.
Also as I mentioned before, I respect the opinion of the Coptic Bishops who declared this to be authentic. While the Copts are not in full union with the Eastern Orthodox, I know that may Eastern Orthodox respect the Coptic Church (I hope that is the case).
The moot point of all this talk is why the Copts and all the "non-Chalcedonians", if they hold the same doctrine as the Orthodox (as they claim), can not accept the decisions of the Holy Synod of Calcedon?
ReplyDeleteThe sad truth is that they have erred doctrinally, in other words they preferred their own "scholarly" formulations against the formulations of the whole Church. This is the definition of heresy. Hairesis means "school". It was a "school", rationalizing formulation that appealed to the Syrian/Aramaic "school" and to the "Aramaic" Christianity as opposed, circumstantially, to the "Greek" one. They opted for the Islamic yoke because it was, apparently, opposed to the "Greek" yoke, because they were all "arabic" of some sort. The first manifestation of "ethnophiletism". They welcomed the islamist thugs when they overwhelmed Egypt. You cannot twist a well documented history.
As to the fake apparitions of the Mother of God. Well, all significant interventions of Our Lady in our live are extremely "discreet" (Icons that weep, sudden changes of fortunes when fervent prayers were addressed to Her, routing of enemies when Her griddle was dipped in the waters of the Bosporus, sudden freeze in Russia when the Icon of the Mother of God of Kazan was exhibitted by Stalin (of all!).
In the West this "miracle" is practically unheard of, which is why the skeptics havn't jumped on it. Plus its old news and there are plenty of websites out there refuting the previous apparitions in Egypt. But practically all the Orthodox I know fully agree with me. If I pointed this out to a skeptic or an atheist they would agree as well, I'm sure. If you can't see the rod, which is very clearly connected to the tower on the roof, then maybe you need to adjust the picture quality on your computer. Everyone I have pointed this out to, about a dozen personally, have all clearly seen it. And since this is refuted, I don't feel the need to address the other issues right now. I will though in a separate post.
ReplyDeleteDear John -
ReplyDeleteIn my comments, I have always showed respect to the Eastern Orthodox Church (and I will always do because it is genuine regardless of our exchange here). Your latest post does not really respond to my comments, and is bordering toward insult, and I do not like that.
All what I was trying to do was to argue that this was not a hoax. I am not in a position to answer why the Copts do not accept the Coucil of Chalcedon. I am only a lay person, and I leave this to the theologians. I just would request that you do not call these apparitions fake without being there to see it yourself.
Yes, I totally agree with you that significant interventions of the Theotokos are typically discreet, and we experience them on a daily basis. However, as I mentioned before, perhaps God now because of our lack of faith is working miracles in a way that is hard to deny. When sin abounds, grace abounds even more.
I am now going to wish you good night. It is pretty late. I also wanted to wish you a Happy New Year. I also would like to close this exchange since I am beginning to sense from the language of your latest post, that this exchange is not building us spiritually.
Sorry you misinterpreted my language. I'm just being honest. It's hard for me to understand why someone would deny the obvious. I personally think it takes more faith to believe this is true than false due to the clear evidence. But a Blessed New Year to you as well.
ReplyDeleteOne more comment to bring things closer to a rational discussion. You cannot,logically, ask to "demonstrate" that a hoax is NOT a hoax. The onus of proof is with the one who asserts that a certain phenomenon really occurred. When Orthodox Christians assert that a certain Icon of the Mother of God wept, they make sure also that the witness of the onlookers is solid. Miracles of Our Lady are abundant, no one can contend that. None of the real ones are "visions" like the Lourdes, Fatima or Medjugorje ones imparted to pubescent girls. They are "solid" (most of them are "weeping icons", or miraculous healings for people who pray to reputed miraculous icons).
ReplyDeleteI cannot but agree with John that it is all a hoax of the worst kind. I have the impression that the Copts try to impress the "West" to come to their rescue, confronted with the Islamic intolerance. They are wrong. The "West" is hands in glove with the most intolerant kind of Islam (one has only to look at what happened to the former Yugoslavia). Their most solid help would come only from the Orthodox, would they really put aside their pride in the "non-Chalcedonian" stand (which is, by all accounts, Schism). The ball is their court. It depends how they choose to play it.
Just passing by on the Internet, and stopping to add my conviction, as an Orthodox Christian, that the "apparitions" in Egypt occur outside of the Church, therefore contain no truth to be heeded by Orthodox believers. Orthodox Christians should just ignore this. If there is some meaning in the events for non-Orthodox people, that is their own concern. I cannot rule out that God may choose some odd method to try and reach individuals in need of salvation and of calling to the true faith [i.e. Orthodox Christianity]. I just am not bound to believe that God had anything to do with these events. We are bound solely by the Orthodox faith and by what the Holy Fathers have handed down to us. To hold this viewpoint does not insult anybody.
ReplyDeleteWe cannot limit the ways that God will approach people. Everything is done as is appropriate for that person. We must never lose sight of that.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, were these real miracles, they would be entirely extraordinary, as they are unlike any of the numerous authentic appearances of the Theotokos.
Looking at the footage and the other images from the site John has linked to, I think I see what is going on.
First, the bright light that is filmed in the cell phone camera in the video above is simply a light that shines from the bell tower in the compound of the church. This bell tower is visible in the other photos and videos.
Secondly, in some of the pictures, the combination of the spotlights on the domes' crosses and the tower are shown to make a suggestive shape on the side of the tower. This is likely what was originally declared an appearance of the Theotokos, and this was then blown out of proportion. It appears to be no more than a trick of the light, and the people filming the spotlight from the tower are thus quite mistaken in thinking that they are capturing an image of the Theotokos in their cameras.
So it seems to me.
I appreciate the comments made by Kevin and the “anonymous” comment right before, and totally agree that our brothers and sisters in the Eastern Orthodox Church are not bound to believe in these events, but to only hold to the Orthodox Faith. I also agree that one should not run after miracles, but that faith should stem from a strong relationship with God.
ReplyDeleteHowever, my request to John and to others was not to try to show that this is a hoax based on very limited information. We were not there witnessing the event when it happened. We are just trying to analyze a low quality video taken from a mobile phone. We have not seen the church towers, domes or crosses My argument was that the eye witnesses should be trusted more, especially given that (from a Coptic perspective), the testimony includes that of their beloved church and her hierarchy which I felt somewhat offended that our brothers and sisters are accusing of propagating a hoax. Moreover, as I tried to point out, the Coptic opinion (which once again our Orthodox brothers and sisters are obviously not bound to accept) is based on cumulative evidence based on numerous other similar appearances in their history, and based on accompanying phenomenon that (once again in my opinion) cannot be explained in any other way other than being miraculous.
Also I wanted to apologize for John for misinterpreting his language. It turns out that I was referring to another comment by protov, which sounded to me as not to the point.
Have a blessed new year full of peace, joy and grace.
Dear John Sanidopoulos,
ReplyDeleteI am glad to write in this wonderful blog for the first time and I pray that God may bless you and your work.
I want to mention some points concerning the Warak Apparition as I live in Cairo near Warak.
1- the police cut the light off from the whole area and our Lady still appeared many times.Everyone has to remember that these things happened before Muslims and Police (Muslims) eyes.
2- our church fears the responeses of Muslims if it made such a trick or approve it, known that Warak is highly populated Muslims area.
3- Muslims were searching for any possible explanation shows it was a trick made by the church in Warak but they failed.
4-The Beacon in which one may think in it was a laser machine is very clear and could be seen easily by anyone was standing in the street (notice how many Muslims were there wanting to see laser machine).
4-After a weak from this apparition on Warak she began to appear in many locations and cities. (maybe 40 different locations . It shocked Egypt)
5-The Apparition in Warak began with a lighting dove appeared between clouds on warak church then it came nearer and nearer to be our Virgin Mary standing on the church.(so it can not be laser).
This is the witness of Muslims who were the first people who saw her.
6- 22-12-2009 WAS A TURNING POINT .our Lady appeared in the sky! as a big lighting flying dove again. she was seen by millions of both Christians and Muslims in many locations in Cairo. I saw that. NO TRACE FOR LASER. It was a wonderful day in all Egypt. THOSE PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT THE WARAK APPARITION IS A HOAX OR LASER (ALTHOUGH THEY DONT UNDERSTAND HOW) CAME TO REALIZE THAT THEY FACE A WONDERFUL EVENT NOT DONE BY MAN HAND.
7-I think its very difficult to doubt the wonders accompanied the Apparition like the incense (strange one i saw) or or the strange doves or the healing power or especially the clouds which acted very strangely making shapes for Jesus or doves or Mary and more.
8- I think St.Mary appeared as we know her.That means either our pictures for her came from original one (like the church asserts)or simply she appeared in a way familiar to us to recognize her.
9-St.Mary was greeting all the people who were gathering to see her . she blessed everyone whether a Christian or a Muslim. St.Mary wanted to say that we are all sons of God. So no need anymore to say catholic or orthodox or whatever. God loves us all through Jesus Christ this, is my opinion.
Glad you posted Gam. Realize that I am only going on evidence as I live in America. The video seems too conclusive for me to deny however. And even if it were true, your #9 point would be one reason why I would think it is another spirit and not the Holy Virgin who is appearing. This is exactly the same heresy that is taught in some of the more famous Marian apparitions in the Catholic Church which surely are demonic.
ReplyDeleteI can see clearly where the light goes out,i was so wishing that our lady appearing in eygpt was true as i am not well,why would someone do this,i just hope that all the other apparitions are not hoaxes as well,as its nice to think there is somewhere nice to go when we leave this earth.
ReplyDeleteAccording to the testimony of the Coptic Orthodox Church and based on the testimonies of thousands of people from different religions, the Virgin Mary did appear in Egypt several times beginning with her glorious apparition in Zeitun in 1968. Of course, we should not just depend on apparitions or miracles for our faith. Nevertheless, I personally think that real miracles and apparitions, when authenticated by the church and spiritual fathers, do strengthen the faith of many.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the light going out, that is how an apparition would end anyway. As many people above have commented, had there been an artificial source of light, the people there would have noticed and the Coptic Church, which is in a country where the majority is Muslim, would have never been able to confirm the authenticity of the miracle.
I really hope your right anonymous,i have believed in our lady since i was a child,but i have been suffering so much and you see people who are not very nice ,doing bad things and there is nothing wrong with them,i wonder why our lady cant change it around so these bad souls get sick and leave the good people to get on with the love they have for there family and friends.
ReplyDelete