Comments on MYSTAGOGY: Papism: The Insurmountable Obstacle of Christian U...

Fr Augustine of Florina also sued Archbishop Styli...

2010-09-09T17:59:41.775-04:00

Fr Augustine of Florina also sued Archbishop Stylianos but the Oikoumenical Patriarch did not wish to examine the matter seriously. They were friends back then, but not any more. If Stylianos had repented and denounced all his heretical priechings, the whole matter would now be over. Stylianos has uttered other heresies as well, which have not been mentioned here thus far. He has been criticised by many traditional Orthodox theologians in Greece, such as the University Professor Konstantinos Mouratidis, Fr Demetrios Kloutsos, Nikolaos Psaroudakis etc.

Gentle heart, did you ever read about his eminenc...

2010-04-07T15:59:53.713-04:00

Gentle heart, did you ever read about his eminence Stylianos,and the blasphemies, or are you just so passive and determined to be politically correct that you don't bother reading the cannons of the Orthodox Church?

Have you read anything about the Fathers of the Church? about the Saints,and the Theologians that have battled "HYPOCRITES" among who were also some reluctant to say, Orthodox Bishops!

But, lately it's in fashion I guess, to be against the sanctity of the Church and Christian family.

I would like you to read St. Makarios Evgenikos, and pay careful attention to what he, and St. Gregory Palamas had to battle in the ecclesiastical forum. This is still being carried out by the heretics (Catholics)and the Charismatic movement hosted in the past by our beloved Eminence Stylianos.

I would ask that people stop talking about His Emi...

2010-03-05T23:40:47.098-05:00

I would ask that people stop talking about His Eminence without his knowledge or right of reply.

Fr Kourtesis was a trouble maker and so were many of the others that OrthoScooter mentions ... the damage that many of these very egotistical human beings has caused Australian Greek Orthodoxy can not be described. The facts are there and I grew up in amongst it all.

I still see the repurcusions of it around me today.

We always seem to know better than the primate.
His Eminence is an amazing man, a rare intellect and an exceptional theologian who knows how to sheperd his church very well and also knows what he is talking about.

Just a bit more context: in 1991 the 7th Assembly ...

2010-02-07T15:06:15.869-05:00

Just a bit more context: in 1991 the 7th Assembly of the World Council of Churches was held in Canberra, the capital of Australia. Needless to say, the Orthodox hierarchy was out in force, participating in these antics, and the traditionalists (most of whom had some connection with Mr. Soteropoulos) went ballistic. These were tense times. There was much unrest in the Balkans, and war was on the horizon. A lot of Orthodox were very greatly angered by the devious role Pope JPII was playing in that, as well as in the Ukraine and elsewhere. It was a perfect storm.

Thanks for some clarifications. I think the whole ...

2010-02-07T07:43:39.977-05:00

Thanks for some clarifications. I think the whole thing just proves how complicated the issue really is.

In any case, he just started preaching without per...

2010-02-07T04:22:50.642-05:00

In any case, he just started preaching without permission. Among his many sermons, just getting the people excited about their Orthodoxy, or going after the Watchtower (JWs) or the other non-Orthodox, he also started to talk about the slight he felt he'd been dealt at the Church offices, though this may have been a response to sermons of the Abp. questioning why he was preaching without permission. He may have even started denouncing ecumenism and the neo-Orthodox (see below) as well. However, I have to admit that I can't remember the exact sequence of subjects in the sermons that marked this steady escalation.

In any case, Mr. Soteropoulos and the Abp. were never going to hit it off. They were from two very different, and antagonistic camps--the one from the very conservative (and some would argue puritanical) Brotherhoods (Fr. E. Matthopoulos, Mr. P. Trembelas etc.), the other from the intellectualizing "neo-Orthodox" who wanted to repackage Orthodoxy at present it in a more culturally sophisticated way (Existentialism etc.). These included C. Giannaras, who had been involved with the Brotherhoods before turning on them.

So when the Abp.'s lackluster performance on Kazantzakis came out, accompanied by the ridiculously written piece, it was the flashpoint.

I might add, too, that this conflict provided the occasion for other players in the Australian arena to get into the mix. For example, there had been a decades-long schism in Australia between the Archdiocese and the parishes affiliated with the Greek Community (a Greek lay body) over the ownership of land titles. The schism was centered in the city of Adelaide. Abp. Stylianos did not cause this conflict--his predecessor had--but he was perceived as being a hardliner who would not give the opponents an inch.

Around this time, too, another conflict was brewing between +Stylianos and an archimandrite from Melbourne, Hierotheos Kourtesis, who wanted to give his monastery and affiliated parishes, including a fully-fledged Day School with some 900 students (with another school being planned) to the Patriarchate of Jerusalem. Two JP Bishops, Timotheos (then of Lydda) and Hesychios of Capitolias came to take possession.

Moreover, the aforementioned Greek Community churches were threatening to join the JP as well. This would have given the JP some ten-fifteen metochia right off the bat (some very big churches too). Needles to say, the supporters of Mr. Soteropoulos automatically aligned themselves with the JP presence, especially because it had a reputation for being anti-heretical

The EP went into a tailspin, and called a Synod that threatened the JP (which quickly backed off), and, while it was at it, excommunicated Mr. Soteropoulos. Strangely, the Abp.'s doings were never addressed. That was unusual because I lived in Greece at the time and I knew for a fact there was a number of churchmen and professors who agreed that the Abp.'s words were outrageous and worthy of denunciation. Yet nothing ever came of them.

I think it was precisely this silence throughout the affair that made Mr. Soteropoulos up the ante, even to unreasonable levels, and eventually be excommunicated. He latched on to all sorts of things on which +Stylianos had written, denouncing them too. Some of these attacks were unreasonable. The piece you linked to is not the whole story, but only one of these later aspects--over whether +Stylianos really called Scripture a "paramythi" (a tale). I think the Abp. had used the technical term "myth" somewhere, and Mr. Soteropoulos just jumped on it. He also jumped on +Stylianos' apparent acceptance of evolution elsewhere. Mr. Soteropoulos went overboard on these, only because, as I said, he was not getting any response on the more serious Kazantzakis affair. One thing, though, at that time in AU, he never once advocated going to the Old Calendarists as you say. He never liked the fact they were so split. He was not against ROCOR though.

This is really a walk down memory lane. I happened...

2010-02-07T04:21:46.884-05:00

This is really a walk down memory lane. I happened to be in Australia when all these things happened. The way I remember it, the whole thing started with the Scorcese movie. The reaction to it from Christians of all stripes was quite shocked, and so in classic TV style, a panel of religious leaders was called on a national current affairs show to discuss it, among whom was also Abp. Stylianos.

During the course of the conversation it came out that the inspiration behind the movie was of course Kazantzakis. At this point, it seems Stylianos got all patriotic--K. was a Cretan intellectual and man of letters, just like himself--and so instead of just denouncing it straight out and being done with it, he started getting all artsy and flaky, saying we shouldn't look to what a simple monk (that's how he described K., interestingly) thinks to find out who Christ is etc. Some of the other guests were left scratching their heads, as were a number of Greeks watching the show.

Later, some Greek media were interested in following up with the Abp., and so they had him on the ethnic Greek radio show to say a few more things about the movie. Again, the Abp. was equivocal, even presenting Kazantzakis' work as a venture against Docetism. This caused further confusion; even the radio host seemed quite stunned by the explanation he received.

The bomb really dropped, though, when the Abp. touched on the whole theme once again some time later in the official publication of the Archdiocese in Australia (Voice of Orthodoxy).

There, he wrote: "'Όποιος νομίζει ότι η ανθρώπινη φύση του Χριστού έπεσε από τόν ουρανό τέλεια καί αναμάρτητη . . . αυτός δέν θά καταλάβει ποτέ τό βαθμό της κενώσεως πού καταδέχτηκε ο Θεός Λόγος . . . Γιατί η αναντίρρητη αναμαρτησία του Κυρίου δεν ήταν βέβαια ένα δογματικό θεώρημα πού μαγικά θά έπρεπε νά αποστηθίσουν οι Χριστιανοί . . . 'Η αναμαρτησία του Κυρίου έπρεπε νά βιωθει κατά τόν πιό υπαρξιακό τρόπο από τούς πιστούς ως ηθική νίκη του Θεανθρώπου πού κατακτήθηκε βήμα πρός βήμα . . ." (my trans.: "Whoever thinks that the human nature of Christ fell from the sky perfect and sinless...such a one will never understand the degree of kenosis (self-emptying) that God the Logos deigned to endure...Because the Lord's unquestioned sinlessness was not of course a dogmatic theorem that Christians had magically to learn by rote...The sinlessness of the Lord had to be lived by the faithful in the most existential way, as a moral victory of the God-man that was won step by step.")

Now when this ridiculously written thing hit the press, a circus ensued. Mr. Soteropoulos denounced +Stylianos, calling him a heretic. There was already some prehistory between the two. Mr. Soteropoulos was an itinerant preacher who, with the permission of the hierarchy, had preached throughout Greece. He was especially effective against the Jehovah's Witnesses, and had written a number of tracts and books against them. This was his specialty, and he had managed to convert many of them back. He also was against Ecumenism. A lot of Orthodox lay-people really liked him, and a group of them in AU wanted to bring him there as well.

Anyway, he accepted the invitation and went to Australia. He arrived at the Archdiocese to get permission to preach. What happened next is not clear. He was either declined, or forced to wait a long, long time in the lobby, and so he just left, flustered.

.../2

Some interesting stuff on the whole Sotiropoulos a...

2010-02-07T00:43:51.006-05:00

Some interesting stuff on the whole Sotiropoulos affair (in Greek):

http://www.eleftheriadis.edu.gr/site/content/view/157/66/

From what I recall, the whole Sotiropoulos affair ...

2010-02-07T00:07:50.268-05:00

From what I recall, the whole Sotiropoulos affair began when Archbishop Stylianos wrote in a Christmas encyclical that Christ was born with a fallen human nature. I think the reference that he endorsed "The Last Temptation of Christ" movie is more rhetorical for that other statement he really made. And though Sotiropoulos was right in speaking out, we should also consider the fact that he really did go too far and eventually became a threat to the unity of the Greek Orthodox Church in Australia. He would go there and preach in secret gatherings about the evils of Stylianos and would encourage people to go to the Old Calendarists schismatics if necessary rather than be in communion with him, which is obviously the wrong way to go. In other words, he was a major vocal threat. My own relatives would arrange secret gatherings with him here in Boston and in Montreal and a lot of it was good stuff, but he was more of a threat to the unity of the Church from what I have seen and heard in the many lectures I have of his. Excommunication may have been far reaching in trying to discredit him, but he was definately deserving of some disciplanary action, as well as Stylianos at the time. But from what I'm hearing now, he is receiving communion despite his excommunication in his hometown of Patras, which is a good thing in my opinion. Hopefully someone in that whole fiasco will humble themselves a bit and settle the whole matter.

Anonymous, Mr. Soteropoulos was the one who went a...

2010-02-06T21:02:54.664-05:00

Anonymous, Mr. Soteropoulos was the one who went after Abp. Stylianos over his flaccid response to the Kazantzakis film around 1987-8. Metr. Augoustinos of Florina also got involved. Yes, Abp. Stylianos made some big mistakes. On this point his response to the film made it look like he was saying Christ sinned, and he was never formally called to answer for this. On the contrary, the EP unjustly punished his accuser. Still, compared to the GOARCH of America, the GO Church of Australia (though it too has its issues) is much, much, much more traditional, and this has a lot to do with Abp. Stylianos. As they say in Greek, "Πρέπει να πούμε και του στραβού το δίκαιο." Though he has made BIG mistakes, there is no chance that such a document as the one posted above would ever have been produced by any other EP hierarch. It makes me wonder whether, in his old age, Abp. Stylianos does not have some serious regrets. If he does, I wish he would have the gallantry just to go visit both Metr. Augoustinos and Mr. Soteropoulos and patch it up with them.

JS, from what I have been told recently, Mr. Soteropoulos is still excommunicated. I understand his health has not been good lately. He is still writing though (saw him recently on Orthodoxos Typos), and preaching (judging from what was said by the intrepid Fr. Euthymios Trikamenas in a recent sermon). He is a heroic figure.

Regarding Mr. Sotiropoulos situation, I'm not ...

2010-02-06T11:10:25.204-05:00

Regarding Mr. Sotiropoulos situation, I'm not sure what ever happened.

Heresies of Archbishop Stylianos of Australia, who...

2010-02-06T11:05:48.116-05:00

Heresies of Archbishop Stylianos of Australia, who preaches Christ's participation in sin (who apart from an antichristians could be capable of this? - L.P.), who maintains that the notorious film by Kazantzakis and Scorcese "The Last Temptation", portraying our Lord as a debauchee, contains no blasphemy, who declares that Orthodoxy and Papism are in no way different and constitute one Church; that man has descended from an ape; and that Holy Scripture is a great fabrication!.. " [320] The tragedy which took place in June of 1993 in Balamand (Northern Lebanon, near Tripoli) officially known as the Seventh Plenary Session of the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue Between the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Church was being prepared in all secrecy for a long time. In Balamand the "Orthodox" have for the first time officially accepted the "branch theory" and by refusing to confess the Orthodox Church as being Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, they actually repudiated the Creed [321]. I don't believe anything his "Grace has to say". P.S. I am Australian and I know of him very well!

OrthoScooter, I agree the whole Soteropoulos affai...

2010-02-06T01:13:09.767-05:00

OrthoScooter, I agree the whole Soteropoulos affair was a mess and the Archbishop and Patriarch were in the wrong on that one. I was wondering however as I have not kept up to date on the subject, was the excommunication on Soteropoulos ever lifted and whatever happened to him post-1995 (when I last heard about him)?

And, to clarify, some of the "suspect things&...

2010-02-06T01:08:09.890-05:00

And, to clarify, some of the "suspect things" he did back in the 1980-90s include his conflict with H.E. Augoustinos of Florina & the theologian Nikolaos Soteropoulos. They were big mistakes on his part. He made a few others too. Still, he has done a lot of good work in Australia as well, and this must not go unmentioned.

To anti-Stylianos Anonymous; if you want a cure to...

2010-02-05T21:31:50.534-05:00

To anti-Stylianos Anonymous; if you want a cure to your anti-Stylianism, come live in the US for a few years. You'll go back home and kiss the man's feet; I promise you. When he first went there, +Stylianos could have allowed the Church in Australia blindly to follow the assimilationist, inferiority-complex ridden path blazed by the Greek-Americans. But he did not. He's probably done a few suspect things in his time, I'll grant you, but overall, he's been one of the better ones we've had. And in his old age, it seems he's regaining some of his youthful zeal & clarity. Ο Θεός να σας εχει καλά, Σεβασμιώτατε!

It seems as though anonymous has a personal vendet...

2010-02-04T05:49:42.696-05:00

It seems as though anonymous has a personal vendetta with Archbishop Stylianos.
Was there anything wrong with the above article or didn't you even bother reading it?
If you are Orthodox then you should have respect for ordained Hierarchs and not contempt.
Best you go to confession..........

My concesrns are with the remarks of Archbishop St...

2010-02-03T14:07:10.219-05:00

My concesrns are with the remarks of Archbishop Stylianos. I find them very fascinating considering the fact that;

1. Isn't he the one that stressed the "Ecumenical movement"? by saying "all the religions share the same god".
2.That unification is in sight, even though we can't assemble an Ecumenical synod!
3.Isn't he the one that said that there is no god! and only within the ecumenical movement is where we'll find God!
What a CLOWN!!! What a JOKE!!!
Hey! Everyone look up the Balamand Treaty!
Look at what this CLOWN did to the Orthodox with the Help of the Cardinals.
Do I need say more? Open your eyes people!!! We got Wolves in Sheep's clothing among us.

I do apologize for such Harshness, because I am Orthodox. But, I will not stand and CLOWNS like Stylianos of Australia mocking us and our faith.

This outspokeness from His Eminence is the reason ...

2010-02-02T20:07:05.199-05:00

This outspokeness from His Eminence is the reason why Patriarch Bartholomew has turned his back on all Orthodox faithful in Australia.
The entire Orthodox church will lose a valuable resource when Archbishop Stylianos leaves this world.

Geo

It's good to see hierarchs speaking out!

2010-02-02T14:51:21.848-05:00

It's good to see hierarchs speaking out!

Thanks for pointing this out. The translation is a...

2010-02-02T13:45:41.294-05:00

Thanks for pointing this out. The translation is a bit misleading so I just corrected that passage to how the Archbishop wrote it in the original Greek.

It's hard to avoid skepticism over His Eminenc...

2010-02-02T13:06:29.638-05:00

It's hard to avoid skepticism over His Eminence's reading of history when he makes such a fundamental mistake as saying that St. Constantine I the Great made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire, when in fact that was done by St. Theodosius I the Great. See "Constantine the Great and Historical Truth" by Protopresbyter Fr. George D. Metallinos, Professor Emeritus of the University of Athens School of Theology at http://www.oodegr.com/english/paganismos/sykofanties/kwnstantinos_ist_alithia1.htm.

God bless you and yours,
Will R. Huysman