Comments on MYSTAGOGY: Orthodoxy and Halloween: Separating Fact From Fict...

Not for publication, please... Dear John, My con...

2010-02-28T13:23:54.169-05:00

Not for publication, please...

Dear John,

My condolences for the cross of dealing with absolute shmidiots. Haven't you figured out that the zealots have a patristic citation for EVERYTHING? You can't argue with such sorts.

Like unto them are the Uniates who try to tell you that everything is now hunky-dory between the Church and the various Unias. They get all bent out of shape when you remark that no Orthodox hierarch has put his John Henry to any ukaze authorising such nonsense.

In short, it ain't easy being green... It does take ALL kinds, John. Do pass me the jug, it's on your right. You may take a friendly slug, yourself (indeed, I urge you to, you need it!).

a kind word from a fellow blogger in the trenches,
Vara Drezhlo

PS
Don't give any credence to anyone who won't give their name... if it's on my driver's licence, it's good enough to share with you. Be good and walk the path of the Fast to the end... then... HAPPY EASTER!

BMD

No, I was saying in essence this is the way "I" vi...

2010-02-22T08:03:41.769-05:00

No, I was saying in essence this is the way "I" viewed Halloween. And if you read the rest of the article in context, I try to dispel both the "evilness" and "goodness" of Halloween. But since you equate "sin" with "Halloween", I can see why you find these things incomprehensible, even though for me the twaine do not meet.

"I realized in the impurity and evil of my heart I...

2010-02-22T07:55:11.772-05:00

"I realized in the impurity and evil of my heart I was choosing a much easier enemy to fight rather than the much more difficult enemy within, the enemy of my ego which easily saw scandal elsewhere rather than the impurity and scandal within my own heart and mind."

In essence, you are saying that Christians who view Halloween as evil, do so because they themselves have evil in their hearts. I suppose that those Christians who have no evil in their hearts would view Halloween as a harmless, non-evil holiday (holy day)?

In other words, Christians who view Halloween as evil are evil themselves, while Christians who view Halloween as good are good?

This is tantamount to saying that I must be evil to think sin is evil. If I were not evil then I would not think sin is evil.

This illogical. I'm sorry, but I can't buy this logic.

Interesting article in National Geographic: http:...

2009-11-10T09:46:40.359-05:00

Interesting article in National Geographic:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/10/091029-halloween-costumes.html

I couldn't help but notice how much your arguments are supported here John. Though it ties to tie in modern practices with the ancient ones, the author always has to point out that we in fact have no records on how the ancient Celts celebrated Samhain. And even what is described here is relatively harmless, though of course a bit pagan influenced as they were pagans. But it would be understandable how relatively easy early Christians could have blessed and slightly altered these practices as a harmless cultural practice.

Many culyures throughout the world have had a cele...

2009-11-05T13:38:33.443-05:00

Many culyures throughout the world have had a celebration or festival which centers around the idea of "Remembrance of death" and evrything connected with it at "Harvest time", as death is the harvest of our life. The seeds we have sown during our life, be they good seeds or bad seeds, we reap at the time of our death.

In our culture,for the most part, unfortunately,only the worst aspects of death are remembered, Hell, the dead who find no rest, and the fallen angels, whose vices are seen as our only opportunity to "enjoy ourselves" before our inevitable, unpleasant end. Another,subtle message being that,"All this is just kid stuff. There is no life after death. We simply cease to exist. We should have as much "fun" as we can before then."

As an Orthodox Christian, I believe that what Halloween HAS BECOME is not only against everything that we know to be true about life and death and about how we ought to live our lives in this very temporary world, it misses the point of it's pre-christian "Pagan" roots as well,(which were actually CLOSER to what we believe than what we see portrayed in the media, for instance...)

Setting aside the errors of the modern world, we pray: "Grant us to pass the night of the whole present life with wakeful heart and sober thought, ever expecting the coming of the radiant day of the appearing of Thy only-begotten Son, our Lord and God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, when the judge of all will come with Glory to render to each according to his deeds. May we not be found fallen and idle, but awake and alert for activity, ready to accompany Him into the joy and Divine palace of His Glory, where there is the ceaseless sound of those keeping festival and the unspeakable delight of those who behold the ineffable beauty of Thy countenance."

Thank you Kevin. I should also note that even Neo...

2009-11-03T01:46:33.279-05:00

Thank you Kevin. I should also note that even Neopaganism and Wicca specifically are a modern phenomenon as well with no connections to the Celts or the Druids. I posted something on the origin of these movements here:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/10/origins-of-modern-day-wicca-and.html

There is also a fascinating interview with W. Scott Poole I posted about how Americans view Satan and the roots of the so-called "satanic panic" here:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/11/secret-history-of-satan.html

Ioannis, there is no ancient evidence whatsoever t...

2009-11-03T01:25:02.557-05:00

Ioannis, there is no ancient evidence whatsoever that ties Samhain (a harvest festival!) to any kind of human sacrifice: none anywhere of any time. To say otherwise is to lie. To posit such is eisegesis, or is simply parroting secondary sources, neither of which reflect exemplary scholarship.

Who cares if modern neopagans in their newly invented religion claim anything? None of it is historical, their religion or their claims sbout Halloween. You should be more interested in and more supportive of reality than they are.

Keep up the good work, John.

Please, that last response was rather Bonewitted.

2009-11-02T23:42:08.378-05:00

Please, that last response was rather Bonewitted.

Its too bad you can't cite the evidence though.

2009-11-02T23:40:10.473-05:00

Its too bad you can't cite the evidence though.

Sources, right? It is apparent to me that Grimass...

2009-11-02T23:34:42.856-05:00

Sources, right? It is apparent to me that Grimassi, a practicing witch claims Samhain/Halloween as his own. As an Orthodox Christian, I see no problem in giving the devil his due in the case of Halloween, which has been the point of all my posts.

You should also like to know that my post is a cri...

2009-11-02T23:30:32.304-05:00

You should also like to know that my post is a critique of Wiccan beliefs about Samhain. Neopagans argue that Christians transformed Samhain into Halloween. This is not supported by the evidence. So your refutations are merely supporting Wiccan critiques of Christianity.

This is not an issue of credentials. Its an issue...

2009-11-02T23:27:28.964-05:00

This is not an issue of credentials. Its an issue of sources, of which I have told you that I have them, all of them. Didn't I mention in my post that I have studied this subject for the past twenty years. Plus, if you wanted to make it an issue of credentials, then cite yours. but if you just want to cite someone else's then I could quite easily gather dozens of more credible scholars in the field. You are just trying to deny the obvious. It doesn't matter where the truth comes from, as long as it is the truth. Plus, I would be so sure that you don't even own MacKillop let alone ever read him. I own his books and have read him.

Plus, why dont you examine your own sources if you are going to try and critique mine. My sources are mainly primary, though I also made use of secondary sources. But instead of even reading MacKillop you cite Grimassi who described as the following on his website:

"Raven Grimassi has been a teacher and practitioner of the Craft for nearly 30 years. He is trained in the Family tradition of Italian Witchcraft (also known as Stregheria), and is also an initiate of several Wiccan Traditions, including Brittic Wicca and the Pictish-Gaelic Tradition. He is currently the Directing Elder of the Arician Ways. Raven considers it his life's work to ensure the survival of ancient witch lore and legend along with ancestral teachings of the Old Religion."

In other words, "No I can't match his credentials....

2009-11-02T23:15:55.485-05:00

In other words, "No I can't match his credentials. No, I do not have access to primary texts and no, I am not fluent in ancient Celtic languages and on bottom of this,I have nothing to refute the fact that human sacrifices to the god Teutates were performed by ancient Celts at Samhain."

Since you are fond of throwing around the word "propaganda" please explain to us why you have been the mouthpiece of one, Isaac Bonewits author of 'Bonewits Essential Guide to Witchcraft'?

A little intro on his first steps toward neopaganism:

"It was during his time at Berkeley, that Bonewits spent about eight months as a member of the Church of Satan, an adventure he says, which began as a bit of a laugh."

John S's script:

The Real Origins of Halloween
http://www.neopagan.net/Halloween-Origins.html

and

Halloween Errors and Lies
http://www.neopagan.net/Halloween-Lies.html

If you really want to make yourself sick, read how Bonewits parses the difference between Neopagans, like himself(good) and satanists-Christian-dualists (two sides of the same coin - bad) here:

The Enemies of Our Enemies
http://www.neopagan.net/Enemies.html

The hilarious part about Bonewits' propaganda, is his attempt to "sell" of his version of neopaganism/neodruidism. He presents his potential followers of with an anachronistic politically correct paganistic/druidic creed of freedom from "racism, sexism, and religious tyranny." Yeah, just like the real thing sans human sacrifice!

I should also mention that while covering an exten...

2009-11-02T22:34:18.111-05:00

I should also mention that while covering an extensive amount of Celtic material, which is very useful, MacKillop's etymologies are often criticized by scholars for usually not being accurate. In fact some etymologies seem to be based on his looking up words in a modern dictionary rather than from a true command of Celtic linguistics, quite spurious. Also, he tends to assign Gaulish and Brittonic words to Latin.

I know who he is. Yes I do have access to the pri...

2009-11-02T22:25:37.979-05:00

I know who he is. Yes I do have access to the primary texts. And the sources for his information were from the Romans regarding human sacrifices, not the Celts.

James MacKillop, the author of the seminal ‘The Di...

2009-11-02T22:23:38.838-05:00

James MacKillop, the author of the seminal ‘The Dictionary of Celtic Mythology’(Oxford University Press, 1998) notes that human sacrifices to the god Teutates were performed by ancient Celts at Samhain.

James MacKillop, Ph.D.
As a professional writer for thirty years, James MacKillop has published more than 1.7 millions words in parallel careers as a scholar/critic and a journalist. In a search of Internet sites, one finds his name most often as the author of the Oxford Dictionary of Celtic Mythology and the Penguin Myths & Legends of the Celts, the most prominent of his seven books. He is co-editor, with Maureen Murphy, of An Irish Literature Reader, the world’s most widely used college-level textbook in that field. Although actually born of Highland Scottish descent, MacKillop is the past-president of the American Conference for Irish Studies and is currently under commission to write a history of that organization. For twelve years he led a theater and archaeology tour to Ireland. At present he is editor of the Irish Series at Syracuse University Press.

Even before establishing credentials in scholarship, MacKillop was an arts journalist in broadcast and print media. His Celtic studies post-doc at Harvard included time for advanced film theory, and he taught film history for seven years and also produced. His stage reviews began with the classical music station WONO-FM and continued with the Syracuse Post Standard and also the New Times, where he has been a contributing editor since 1984. Reviews and feature stories often total 60,000 words a year and have earned him the Syracuse Press Club Award for Criticism eleven times. He is also an instructor in the highly selective Goldring Arts Journalism of the Newhouse School at Syracuse University.

Lastly, MacKillop also travels professionally as an invited public speaker, appearing three dozen times in four countries, and as a tour leader of theater excursions. For Syracuse Stage, the city’s professional theater, he has led well-subscribed tours to London, England, and the Stratford Shakespearean Festival of Ontario.

===
What are your credentials? Do you also have access to the primary texts? Are you fluent in ancient Celtic languages?

First of all, I dont wear glasses so I can see jus...

2009-11-02T22:16:51.904-05:00

First of all, I dont wear glasses so I can see just fine. Secondly, you have to start thinking a little critically. Haven't you ever wondered what the sources for this information are? Obviously not since if you did you wouldn't be wasting my time with this stuff. Ive already addressed everything you brought up.

Okay, John S. take a deep breath, put on your read...

2009-11-02T22:13:57.759-05:00

Okay, John S. take a deep breath, put on your reading glasse and then read the first line of the story very c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y.

Halloween - Ancient Origins (History Channel)

http://www.history.com/content/halloween/real-story-of-halloween

Halloween's origins date back to the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain (pronounced sow-in).
The Celts, who lived 2,000 years ago in the area that is now Ireland, the United Kingdom, and northern France, celebrated their new year on November 1. This day marked the end of summer and the harvest and the beginning of the dark, cold winter, a time of year that was often associated with human death. Celts believed that on the night before the new year, the boundary between the worlds of the living and the dead became blurred. On the night of October 31, they celebrated Samhain, when it was believed that the ghosts of the dead returned to earth. In addition to causing trouble and damaging crops, Celts thought that the presence of the otherworldly spirits made it easier for the Druids, or Celtic priests, to make predictions about the future. For a people entirely dependent on the volatile natural world, these prophecies were an important source of comfort and direction during the long, dark winter.
To commemorate the event, Druids built huge sacred bonfires, where the people gathered to burn crops and animals as sacrifices to the Celtic deities.
During the celebration, the Celts wore costumes, typically consisting of animal heads and skins, and attempted to tell each other's fortunes. When the celebration was over, they re-lit their hearth fires, which they had extinguished earlier that evening, from the sacred bonfire to help protect them during the coming winter.
By A.D. 43, Romans had conquered the majority of Celtic territory. In the course of the four hundred years that they ruled the Celtic lands, two festivals of Roman origin were combined with the traditional Celtic celebration of Samhain.

=====
"LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see." (2 Kings 6:17)

Ioannis, I mentioned in my post that Roman histori...

2009-11-02T21:49:31.142-05:00

Ioannis, I mentioned in my post that Roman historians went on a propaganda campaign in the first century against the Celts. Julius Ceasar and others do mention what you bring up, and they explain how human sacrifices were performed to three different Celtic gods in three different ways - victims meant for Esus were hanged, those meant for Taranis immolated and those for Teutates drowned. Many archaeologists have claimed to try to confirm these accounts, but they are based merely on conjecture as none have offered any conclusive evidence for human sacrifice. However, even if they did, there is no evidence this was done on Samhain, there is definately no evidence for the sacrifice of children or virgins, and most importantly of all, there is no connection between Samhain and Halloween. So your argument, for the time being, is void for lack of evidence.

Re: "For all I know the Druids may have sacrificed...

2009-11-02T21:32:37.397-05:00

Re: "For all I know the Druids may have sacrificed children or did other horrific things, but this is not supported by any evidence..."

Of course the evidence is there for anyone who cares to look for it. Just a couple of examples:

“The classic tree of the Otherwold is the apple tree. In Celtic culture, apples were first harvested at Samhain. Here we see a connection between the apple, Samhain, and the realm that lies beyond the living. MacKillop [James MacKillop, the author of the seminal ‘The Dictionary of Celtic Mythology’, Oxford University Press, 1998] notes that human sacrifices to the god Teutates were performed by ancient Celts at Samhain… Here we find the cauldron, water and apples. This recalls the ancient sacrifice by drowning, and here the person partakes of the sacred apple as he/she is plunged into the water. The apple ensues that the person shall return to life again.” Raven Grimassi, ‘Witchraft – A Mystery Tradition,’ p. 159

“Gundestrup Cauldron. One the most celebrated works of early Celtic religious art was uncovered in a peat bog near the village of Gundestrup, Jutland peninsula, Denmark, in 1880, and is now housed in the museum at Århus. [Its] plates depict gods, conventionally seen as larger than humans, ordinary mortals, and animals. The seated horned god is now commonly accepted as an illustration of Cernunnos. A tall divine figure holding a man over a vat of water is thought to be Teutates accepting human sacrifice. “

See: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O70-GundestrupCauldron.html

Druids Committed Human Sacrifice, Cannibalism?
National Geographic News
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/03/090320-druids-sacrifice-cannibalism.html

"Recent evidence that Druids possibly committed cannibalism and ritual human sacrifice—perhaps on a massive scale—add weight to ancient Roman accounts of Druidic savagery, archaeologists say."

I also want to mention to everyone that I added a ...

2009-11-02T16:38:31.746-05:00

I also want to mention to everyone that I added a paragraph to my post to clear up a little why I added the two quotes in the beginning of my article.

Patrick, thank you for your comments and your humb...

2009-11-02T16:20:20.458-05:00

Patrick, thank you for your comments and your humble approach in correcting this issue on your website, most of which I enjoy very much. And the alternative approaches you mention are a valid way to begin to redeem the holiday, though my own opinion is to avoid reactions as much as possible with secular holidays. Personally I dont believe any monastic would endorse the holiday since it is not ecclesiastical (as for example Mardi Gras or Carnival is which is a way to indulge before the Great Fast, or even Thanksgiving is which encourages the breaking of the Advent Fast), but I do fully believe that if they knew the truth about the holiday it would be a non-issue - at least for some maybe even most. In the end, I think it is all a matter of taste and personal conscience and, as you pointed out, if people are conflicted or unable to make a personal decision, then they should consult with a spiritual guide. And I know some people read into those first two quotes as if I'm trying to justify Halloween. I dont believe in the post I am justifying Halloween at all, but critiquing errors that corrupt the witness and mission of Orthodoxy in this world. This is only one of many many issues that do this, and I do believe at the heart of the whole "satanic panic" in America is an impure heart that sees scandals and the devil in others when Orthodoxy teaches us to see the impurity and scandals within our own hearts and minds. Having once thought this way as well, I've been able to judge such things as being a reflection of the evil I in fact had within myself and it gave a much easier enemy to fight against rather than my much more difficult passions. Nonetheless, thank you again for linking to my blog as well as the link you provided as well.

I found the blog post about the Orthodox Christian...

2009-11-02T15:55:46.763-05:00

I found the blog post about the Orthodox Christian who sits on his porch with an Icon and candles during Halloween: http://saintjameskids.blogspot.com/2009/10/halloween-orthodox-approach.html.

John, Thank you for your thought-provoking piece....

2009-11-02T14:44:32.866-05:00

John,

Thank you for your thought-provoking piece. I don't agree with some points, nor do I think the quote from St. Paul is used properly (I can envision someone using it to justify, say, an Orthodox use of heroin), nor do I think Elder Paisios would think it's wise to participate in Halloween. Nevertheless, I do think there are some inaccuracies in the article on my Web site. And your more detailed look at the history of Halloween is an interesting corrective. The article on my site by Archbishop Kyrill was posted probably a decade ago, and no one ever questioned it. I admit that I didn't take time to research these things myself. Just this past week, however, I received an email from a ROCOR layman who said the article's statements about Samhain were wrong. So I updated the article. I was then made aware of your blog post and just added a link to it as well. As I wrote when adding your link: "Let each Orthodox Christian come to their own conclusions if they do not have specific guidance from their Priest or Spiritual Father."

As for me, I'd rather see parishes do an alternative version of Halloween, such as a "Fall Festival", that still allows children to dress up, receive candy, etc. I also recall a blog post from a couple of years ago in which an Orthodox Christian described what he did on Halloween. The details are sketchy, but I seem to recall that he sat on his porch with a large Icon of the Resurrection, had a container of sand with candles in it, and some Orthodox music playing. Children would come to the porch, do their "trick or treat" thing, and he would give them candy while briefly mentioning the Icon, the Resurrection and Christ's conquering death, etc. He did it in a non-judgemental, kindly informal way. I love that kind of thing! What a great way to share Orthodoxy. There are just many ways to approach this holiday...

God be with you, brother.

Patrick Barnes
Webmaster, Orthodox Christian Information Center

Wow, I can't believe how stupid your critics are J...

2009-11-02T12:08:08.097-05:00

Wow, I can't believe how stupid your critics are John. So many posts by them and not one addressed even one issue or fact you brought up. I can't believe our desperately needed monasteries in this country are creating such idiots. I love Elder Ephraim too, but there is no doubt that he knows nothing of Halloween and is definately not qualified to speak on the subject without doing any research. Yes, even Saints must do research. God doesnt speak through them in everything they say, like mediums. This is occultic. Most interesting is how you correctly expose error, but all they can resort to is making this a personal issue, call down God's wrath on you and TRYING to expose your sins. How pathetic and sick! I think you proved in your previous post on "St Gerasimos and the Demon Possessed" that it is the demon possessed that expose peoples sins, not christians. Christians condemn their own sins and justify others sins. So in my humble opinion, I think your critics are displaying signs of possible demonic possession. Just my humble opinion.